Hospitality

I was challenged in a way that I did not expect by the discussion on Sunday on the definition of marriage.   Like many who attended I have opinions on the content and neutrality of the discussion but my thoughts are drifting towards hospitality and listening.

 In the intensity and emotion of the evening I almost forgot that we were invited into someone else’s house for the discussion.  That house happened to be Skyline church.   This was an act of friendship and an act not without risk for Christ’s family at Skyline.

Bishop Gene was one of the main guests from our group and I think he was a model guest.   He was gracious to his host and to the other guests, he listened and he respectfully made his point and I would challenge anyone who came away without a clear knowledge of what he stood for.

I came away hoping that when I am next invited into someone’s house, be it a friend’s or other, that I model my behavior in a similar way to that of Bishop Gene.   Christ also calls me not only to be a guest but also a host and I hope that in fearless love I am as good a host as our friends were at Skyline church.

But where was the conversation?

I was part of the multitude from St.Paul's that attended the "conversation" [2 1/2 hours, would you believe!] about gay marriage at the Skyline Church last week.  There were, indeed, thousands in attendance -- and the conversation was respectful.  Thinking about it today, I'm struck with the almost diametrically opposed perspectives that were highlighted.  Both of the opponents to gay marriage (indeed, gay relationships of any kind) hammered away with biblical proof-texts and scientific studies (or, "studies" as the case may be); and didn't really acknowledge that actual human relationships might be involved.  Bishop Gene Robinson and John Corvino, on the other hand, focused almost entirely on the values that marriage can bring to gay relationships and to society as a whole; and emphasized that the biblical world-view supporting slavery, women as chattel, death for purity-code violations, etc. have all been abandoned or adjusted as society has evolved and that gay marriage shouldn't be held in an "untouchable" class by itself -- especially since the biblical basis for homophobic strictures is so weak. 

I'd really hoped that there might be an actual conversation -- and Gene and Jon really tried; but, all I heard from the other side was the kind of hammering with proof-texts that drove me out of the evangelical tradition 50 years ago -- now, it's just dressed up with better academic credentials.  ... enough of that rant.

Bob Holt

Thought about the conversation at Skyline Church: a response to Robert Gagnon

The conversation about the Definition of Marriage at Skyline Church Sunday night, July 29, 2012, was held, at least on the surface, in a civil atmosphere. Below the surface there were, however, some strong emotions at work, which was to be expected.

My main interest in attending was to observe Robert Gagnon, the very Calvinistic Presbyterian theologian in action, to note his strategy in such a public presentation and to evaluate the coherence of his arguments. Gagnon has a virtual cult status as an exegete among his evangelical and fundamentalist followers, but it should be noted that North American Calvinist evangelical theology is not a theology shared by theologians at academic institutions in Europe and also not by a good many North American academic theologians. To claim, as pastor Garlow did, that Gagnon is considered to be THE exegetical authority on what the Bible says about homosexuality is not accurate.

Gagnon’s methodology Sunday night was to present a rapid barrage of Scriptural statements and theological claims – so many, in fact, that it would be impossible to comment on them all. By using that methodology Gagnon, in effect, made it virtually impossible to engage in any meaningful discussion about his assertions. I shall attempt to identify a few of his assertion and make a preliminary critique of them. To begin with Gagnon asserted that the Bible, both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, uniformly condemn homosexuality. That may or may not be the case, depending of your exegetical method. On that basis he went on to elevate his biblical exegesis as the beginning and end of all there is to understand and say about homosexuality. Consigned to outer darkness is any insight we may have about homosexuality (and, for that matter, human sexuality) from disciplines such as: history, philosophy, sociology, biology, psychology, and the personal experiences of gays and lesbians - - - UNLESS they inform us negatively. What we are left with is a sense that the Bible means to enforce a loathing, disgust and aversion about gays and lesbians because God condemns gay and lesbian sexuality. It was quite revealing that when Rev. Canon Allisyn Thomas asked Gagnon how he would honor the love and commitment she has found among members of the Cathedral who have been in a loving and supportive gay relationship for many years, Gagnon rejected that there was anything to honor.

Gagnon based his argument that the only biblically permissible form of sexuality is sex between a man and a woman. Males and females united sexually represent a complementary wholeness. - - - That is a poor argument because it reduces human sexuality to a level of biological mating, leaving out some of the most important factors that take human sexuality from mere biological mating and turns in into a part of the way in which humans honor and care for one another. In fact, Gagnon made a great deal out of asserting that biologically males could not relate in a loving and caring way to other males. What he did not say was that males supposedly always are aggressive and inherently promiscuous and that is, in his opinion, why male homosexual relationships cannot work. Without going into any depth he asserted that it was different in lesbian relationships. Professor Gagnon must have been very selective in his reading of sources. No wonder that one the debaters characterized Gagnon’s sources as “junk science”.

Gagnon was not averse to using philosophical arguments to bolster his claims. They all seemed to be of the sort “if - - - then - - -“. It is one way of using Aristotelian logic, but in order for his arguments to have any kind of truth value his premises must be true. - - - And herein lies the problem. His logic is of the same kind as the following: (a) Robert Gagnon cannot fly; (b) A stone cannot fly; ERGO: Robert Gagnon is a stone. Indeed, the formality of the argument is right – but it is utter nonsense because his premises are faulty.

Gagnon treated his version of Biblical exegesis as if it was on the same level as science. “The Bible says all we need to know about homosexuality”; “Jesus condemns homosexuality implicitly because he observed the Law”. Here Gagnon is in deep trouble. One maxim in evaluating a scientific statement is to use Karl Poppers theory of falsification. Here is my simplified version: FOR A STATEMENT TO BE SCIENTIFIC IT MUST ALWAYS BE OPEN TO FALSIFICATION. Example: “All swans are white”. Is this a scientific statement? Yes, because we can never observe all swans at the same time so it is possible that there is a black swan somewhere. The statement can be falsified. It is a scientific statement. (A trivial one, of course, but scientific nevertheless).

Gagnon’s claim that the Bible always condemns homosexuality and that it can be proved by doing exegesis of the proper scriptures is not scientific because Gagnon does allow for falsification. Other exegetes who may disagree with Gagnon’s exegesis as already excluded. Gagnon is left inside a hermetically closed argument that is not based on objective science nor on (if that is possible) an objective reading of the Bible.

In contrast to Gagnon, bishop Gene Robinson quoted Jesus’ Johannine promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to lead his followers into all truth. Robinson made the significant point of asking: “When do I know that I hear the voice of God and when is it my own ego masquerading as the voice of God?” This was obviously not a scientific statement, but is has the virtue that we could treat it as such. It correlates to a high degree with Popper’s theory of falsification. Robinson’s statement is a open statement, in principle and  open to falsification (it could be his own ego, or he could be stark, raving mad). Science will not help us to answer Robinson’s question.

May gays and lesbians in the Church may well ask variations of Robinson’s question  and although science cannot help us to answer it, we can find verification in the collective gay and lesbian experience they have of God’s nurturing love for them both in the Logos (Scripture and the living Christ); in the sacraments; in the transforming life in the Body of Christ, in the people of God on a pilgrimage to reconciled union with God. This seems to me to be far more persuasive of what God is up to in the world than the what Gagnon’s angry God is up to.

Fr. Bjorn Marcussen

Fr. Bjorn Marcussen is the interim priest-in-charge of Latina - Latino Ministry at St. Paul's Cathedral in  San Diego. He is a retired priest of the Diocese of San Diego. Before retirement he was Rector of St. Philip's Episcopal Church, Lemon Grove, where he developed the largest Spanish speaking community in the Episcopal Diocese of San Diego. Fr. Marcussen is an ordained old catholic priest,  the Union of Utrecht of Old Catholic Churches. These are national churches in Europe that split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 18. and 19. Centuries over issues of growing papal central leadership as well as the introduction of new dogmas about the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary and Papal Infallibility and Universal Jurisdiction. The Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht have since 1931 been in full communion with the Church of England and since 1946 with the Episcopal Church. 

Fr. Marcussen transferred into the Episcopal Diocese of San Diego in January of 2000.  His interest lies in systematic theology and the theology of the early Church of the first millenium. He has for a number of years critically followed the way US evangelicals do theology and interpret Scripture.  He is especially critical of the theology and exegesis of the ultra Calvinist seminary professor Robert Gagnon. Wherever people stand on the issue of gays and lesbians in the Church, the evangelical/fundamentalist mode of interpreting Scripture leads to a theology that "has all the answers" rather than the understanding of Scripture as a guide that leads us into all truth in a balance between Scripture, Holy Tradition and Reason.

Skyline event: by their fruits you will know them

Last Sunday, Pastor Jim Garlow at Skyline Church in La Mesa invited 4 speakers to address the issue of gay marriage. Bishop Gene Robinson and and Dr. John Corvino spoke in support of it, and Dr. Rob Gagnon and Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, spoke against it.   

  As a society, we are more comfortable with and accepting of, violence, death, war than with sexuality. We are totally conflicted about sex.  Sex deals with the affirmation of life.  Our values are all upside down!    

What is Homosexuality? A sexual relationship between 2 consenting adults (not so scary).  What is marriage? A public, legal commitment between 2 adult persons to mutually love, honor, cherish each other. Committed, stable relationships are good for the individuals as well as for society. As Gene Robinson said, homosexual persons do not want to redefine marriage, they only want to be able to participate in it.

History: All the theological arguments used against homosexual marriage were used against interracial marriage. God did not mean for the races to mix - It was “un-natural” and would ruin the natural order of things And the whole world would come to ruin.

An example of this was given at the end of our forum, which I personally found to be very shocking and insulting - It was implied by Dr. Gagnon that if society accepts homosexual marriage, the next thing that will be approved will be incest and polygamy.   In fact, incest (see history of English Kings) and polygamy (see old testament) have existed for eons, and exist even now Before homosexual marriage has been approved, So we can’t blame homosexual persons for incest or polygamy.

Re: Argument by Dr. Jennifer Morse that it would redefine "natural" relationships, and cause enormous bureaucratic work to change all paperwork to non-gender specification. The same could be said when slavery was abolished and slaves were redefined as persons - Or women were given voting rights, protection against domestic violence, the right to divorce, custody rights, inheritance rights, credit, etc. Or African Americans given civil rights. "Natural" relationships, rights were indeed re-defined and all outmoded paperwork, updated.  

Re: attaching rights to non-biological parents and changing “natural parent” classification To “legal parent” Does this not already happen with foster children, Adoptions, and step parents?

Rob G talked about Jesus intensifying sexual ethics What does this say about his mother, Mary? Mary was certainly the exception to sexual laws of her day. She was a single pregnant teenager who could have easily been stoned to death in her society - (as is still happening today in parts of the world)       Suffice it to say, that Jesus would have been Born outside of wedlock, except that Joseph agreed to marry Jesus’ mother and thus became step father to Jesus. Sounds pretty radical in the patriarchal society of that day. (not so much today)   

Mysteries: what was relationship between two women Ruth and Naomi - Ruth's words of love to Naomi are today perceived as one of the most beautiful and profound pledges of love and are used in heterosexual wedding ceremonies – King David and Jonathan -  Jesus and His “Beloved disciple” -  What are we to make of these relationships?  Some suggest that Jesus was the groom when he turned water into wine, because it was up to the groom to provide the wine….  

 What I heard tonight was a lot of legalism - But, Jesus was not a legalist - In fact, Christ was a radical pacifist, That challenged all the accepted mores Of his culture - He turned them upside down -       He rejected legalism and violence In favor of love, compassion, mercy, equity. He transcended boundaries of race, ethnicity Gender, class, age, custom, etc.  

Somehow the church has lost its bearings - It proclaims Christ Yet breaks and ignores his commandments On every level - most shockingly in the areas of life and death .  In the past, if you asked Christian parents, what would be worse if your child came and told you they had joined the military or if your child said they had been sexually active. most parents would angrily say it was worse for a child to be sexually active.

Finally, I do agree with Rob G. That perhaps God is performing a re-alignment of the church A new Reformation -The same as happened during the abolition of slavery, Equal, civil and voting rights for African Americans, women, And other oppressed, marginal groups.   The churches split back then also.     How is one to determine which side to choose? Jesus said by their fruits you will know them.     Love, Equity, Compassion, Justice, Mercy, Just to mention a few

How are we to live?

Love God, self, neighbor and enemy.

Treat others the way we want to be treated. 

Everything we do to others, we do onto God/Christ. 

Anita Wucinic-Turner 


We'll be publishing more thoughts about the Skyline event over the next few days (to read them all, click here).

More reports about the Skyline event

Susan Hulbert writes:

Skyline church asked for no applause or outbursts and said they had a "friendship committee" that would escort violators out. Most people kept to this. Rob Gagnon with degrees from Dartmouth and Harvard wowed the crowd at the church with his scriptural juxtapositions of Jesus words and Old Testament prohibitions to argue that Jesus was against homosexuality--very weak. He also harped on incest, polygamy, bestiality etc-and kept putting all of them on equal ground with homosexuality in terms of behavior condemned in the Bible. Jennifer Roback Morse used a lot of the Prop 8 proponent arguments about the need to protect traditional marriage to protect children, women and society generally (a weak argument).

Bishop Robinson and John Corvino focused more on why gay marriage actually protects society and creates strong relationships. Bishop Robinson also talked about his own struggles with his sexuality and his first marriage and his fidelity to it. I think their recounting of their own personal experiences and journeys were much more effective than the reliance on so called academic arguments--but then we were biased.

And that minister at Skyline deserves credit for opening a dialogue and keeping it civil.... We learned a lot.

 Ben Hulbert live blogged via Facebook,

Two hours in, and the only two people that are making any sense are Bishop Gene Robinson and Dr. John Corvino (both homosexual, defending gay marriage). The opposing two "doctors" are using big words to explain al point that doesn't exist. The bishop and Corvino are giving examples from their past experiences as a homosexual, while the two opponents giving biblical and historical example that have absolutely no proof or support….in other words, we're winning!

Jonathan Abernethy-Deppe reports on the contingent from St Paul in the Desert who came all the way from Palm Springs for the event

It was a thrill to see the support of so many Episcopalians in attendance. Because of the sense of community amongst us, we made an important witness in the midst of the gathering. Bishop Gene was ever his usual gracious self, but he never gave in to the bullying. He was always a positive witness.

 It was startling to be greeted by security and then behavior guidelines which were announced for the audience. It was interesting in the course of the evening to discover that it was probably in response to perceived or real threats from criticism for hosting this civil dialogue. As Pastor Jim Garlow said, probably no one's position was changed. It was a model for dialogues between opposite sides.

Photos from Hannah

Fearless Love: a report from Skyline Church

I commend Skyline Church for holding this conversation and for inviting the Rt. Rev. Gene Robinson, Episcopal bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire, and not the latest RuPaul look alike. Bishop Robinson had broad support in the audience, thanks to many Episcopalians who made the trip to La Mesa, including some from as far away as St. Paul in-the-Desert, Palm Springs. A few wore Tshirts that said "Fearless Love" with the new diocesan logo.

When the so-called moderator introduced Bishop Robinson, there was an outburst of applause, so I knew there were plenty of supporters in the audience. He spoke from the heart, and he spoke calmly and with conviction. He was warm and funny. All this in stark contrast to the two who spoke against gay marriage: Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse and Dr. Robert Gagnon. Dr. Gagnon gave a steamroller-style presentation supported by a PowerPoint with detailed analysis of what Jesus said about homosexuality, or rather what he extrapolated from Jesus' statements about marriage. Dr. Morse spoke about the harm that would befall society if gay marriage is allowed. These arguments were not new or interesting.

What I found interesting, and irritating, is that the so-called moderator kept interrupting Dr. John Corvino, who is an out, gay man speaking in favor of gay marriage alongside Bishop Robinson. The moderator was the lead pastor of Skyline Church, Jim Garlow. He should not have even attempted to moderate the conversation. He did allow the Rev. Canon Allisyn Thomas to moderate once he recognized that he was really advocating for a position, and not a fair-minded moderator. It bothered me that he was so unaware of his own actions.

One of the most powerful moments was when Bishop Robinson, in replying to a query from the anti-gay marriage speakers about Biblical texts, said that although he agreed that all Biblical texts about homosexuality are negative, it was Scripture that saved his life because he would have put a gun to his head had he not heard God's voice saying to him, "You are my beloved. In you I am well-pleased." Bishop Robinson knew that he was loved by God in spite of what his conservative, homophobic, small-town, Kentucky church told him about homosexuality. A burst of applause from the audience when he finished telling this story punctuated his point.

A fair amount of humor peppered the otherwise tense conversation. It was interesting to sit in the huge, warehouse-like sanctuary with my partner, Kathy, and to know that we were sitting right next to people who were opposed to gay marriage. Not a comfortable experience, but a good one, because it means that we can all be in one room together and discuss this hot topic without coming to blows.

Kudos to Skyline. Huge love and thanks to Bishop Robinson. My favorite picture is to the right!

Hannah Wilder

We'll be publishing more thoughts about the Skyline event over the week (to read them all, click here).

Into the Lion's Den

Last night several of us from the Cathedral found ourselves at Skyline Church in La Mesa to hear and in my case, possibly participate, in an event called “A Conversation About the Definition of Marriage.” Put together by Skyline’s pastor, Jim Garlow, there were four panelists, two for what we would call an inclusive view of marriage, Bishop Gene Robinson and Dr. John Corvino, and two for the view marriage should be between a man and a woman, Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse and Dr. Rob Gagnon.

 It was, as hoped by Pastor Garlow, a civil discussion, with each side given extensive time to speak, and as such a tremendous breakthrough. None of us, including Pastor Garlow, knew quite what to expect given the strong feelings on the issue. Certainly we Cathedral folk didn't, given that Skyline Church had been in the forefront of the pro Proposition 8 campaign in California. However, my experience of the Skyline parishioners last night was that they could not have been more welcoming or helpful.

And after sleeping on it, I am very thankful I was there, and believe it was absolutely a step in the right direction. But I think it addressed the wrong issue. Rather than a conversation about the definition of marriage, it would have been more helpful to simply have a conversation about marriage. As long as we talk about the definition of marriage we distance ourselves from the reality of marriage and the fact marriage is about relationships involving flesh and blood people. It is about the two people directly involved, their children if they have any, their families, and their communities (including their faith communities and relationship with God, if so inclined).

Allisyn moderated part of the event

 While I do not want to say we should never deal with hypotheticals, academic studies, and the like, if we don’t look at the effect policies, regulations, and even tradition have on real people we are in serious danger of becoming like some of the Pharisees Jesus encountered—more interested in the law than what the law is trying to accomplish. It is one thing to hear about “Biblical” definitions of marriage as we heard from Dr. Robach Morse and Gagnon, and quite another to hear the effects those definitions have on people such as Bishop Robinson and Dr. Corvino who are striving to live their lives with integrity and faithfulness. This concern and sense was certainly on my mind when Pastor Garlow invited me on stage to ask a question.

Obviously I have a position on this, as did all the panelists, and while I do not think any minds were changed, hopefully some hearts were. Towards the end, Bishop Robinson told all the people who attend Skyline they should take care of their pastor because he did a brave thing and no doubt has, and will continue, to take criticism for putting on the event. And Bishop Robinson is right. As for me, last night reinforced how marriage, and seeking God’s blessing, is about inviting God into the midst of our most intimate relationship. Thanks be to God.


The Rev. Canon Allisyn Thomas 

We'll be publishing more thoughts about the Skyline event over the week (to read them all, click here).  Don't forget the upcoming 9am Forum Series asking "What makes long lasting relationships?" led by Dr. Marjorie Coburn, a clinical psychologist. The first forum on Sunday August 5th at 9am will feature the Rev. Canon Allisyn Thomas, who will discuss the recently approved Liturgy for Blessing the Unions of Same-Sex Couples.

Support marriage equality and Bishop Gene Robinson!

Pastor Jim Garlow at Skyline Church was a major supporter of Prop8. His church is sponsoring a "conversation on marriage" with prominent anti-equality voices Jennifer Roback Morse (NOM, The Ruth Institute) and Robert Gagnon.

 Representing equality are John Corvino and none other than our friend Bishop Gene Robinson,  who have agreed to join the conversation, to be held at Skyline next week (6pm on Sunday July 29th).

Please join us attending this event in making a powerful witness for equality. Pastor Garlow has asked his crowd to be respectful of alternative points of view, and we ask the same. Remember, many of these people have never met LGBT people of faith. Let's go show them who we are!  This is an opportunity to build bridges and change hearts.  


A carpool will leave from SPC at 4.45 on Sunday.

 Contact Canon Chris Harris for more information (harrisc@stpaulcathedral.org).